Talk:S3 Plan
At what point is the "thing" that calls Raiden at the end of Metal Gear Solid 2 identified as an AI, or even call itself JFK? Too much attention is given to the Solid Snake Simulation part of this, as from what I got out of the last codec call, Solid Snake Simulation was a facade. This sounds like guesswork to me, unless anyone can show me where this information came from. 69.134.156.246 16:30, 22 December 2007 (UTC) :I believe the AI's title of JFK comes from the game script, included with The Document of MGS2. The Solid Snake Simulation was a facade, but the S3 program is real, but was different to how Ocelot described it and was actually known as the Selection for Societal Sanity program. --Fantomas 21:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC) ::GW, which is the AI talking to Raiden at the end of the game. So I will correct that. But all other information in this wiki is correct. I just replayed the end of MGS2 like 30 min ago. GW tells Raiden that Ocelot had it wrong. S3 did not stand for Solid Snake Simulation but Selection for Societal Sanity. GW said that the Patriots felt that American Humans lacked the capability to make globally rational decisions. Along with the addition of the internet and people having the ability to edit information themselves correct or incorrect. The Patriot then decided to create GW as a means of controlling the information there for controlling the population, letting the true rulers of the USA remain in power and unseen. Raiden was the test subject for the S3 plan to see if GW could actually control the informaion being passed to the subject and make him so what it wanted.Justin 20:19, 29 March 2008 (UTC) :::You're wrong on the GW front. The AI at the end is definitely JFK. This is hinted at in game when The Colonel calls Raiden atop Federal Hall. Raiden exclaims "How? The AI was destroyed!!" and The Colonel replies: "Only GW..." and is also flat out stated in The Document, where it says the dialog is coming from JFK. --Fantomas 23:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC) Can we get some citation action going on here? In MGS2 "s3" was not referred to as anything but "Solid Snake Simulator", where does: "Selection for Societal Sanity" come in? I'm relatively certain it was never referred to as such in MGS2. -Paintbait 15:34, 5 July 2008 (UTC) :I take it you skipped the entire ending of the Metal Gear Solid 2 then? It's in the long Codec conversation with the AI versions of The Colonel and Rose just before you fight Solidus. Not only do they refer to it as "Selection for Societal Sanity" but they also go on to explain, in detail, what it is. --Fantomas 15:45, 5 July 2008 (UTC) and btw not only was the true purpose of the exercise was test out s3 but it's solid snake SIMULATION not simulator ... n00b but the patriots rule this country This whole arguement can be simplified. No, it wasnt GW; Yes, the AI could very well be called JFK, or that JFK was retconned for a type of GW; But the biggest part of all of it, was that Raiden already had an AI in his cortex, perhaps a baby GW that would uplink. The fact that the virus affected both proved that they are connected, but the fact that Arsenals GW was destroyed beyond a use for Solidus, but Raidens wasnt implies that Raidens was its own program, though definitely intimately tied to GW. It could have either been eaten alive entirely after awhile by the virus, self-terminated and reported back to the other AI's somehow, or was removed when the Patriots got ahold of him for the Cyborg Ninja sessions, which all seem logical answers, with the most likely being some variation of the last two seeing as the Patriots plans seem uninhibited by the results of the whole debacle, implying that it had to have been some sort of success. Another point I think is note worthy, is that JFK doesnt follow the form of the names for any other AI, which were named after the Founding Fathers (excluding JD) while JFK was more or less a random president choice, seeing as he has no real bearing to the situation, and the only time he did was in MGS3. JFK could have easily been a working title or perhaps a signifier to the creators that wasnt necessarily supposed to be important to the player or the canon. EDIT: I mistook the AIs nomiclature for Founding Fathers, not all Presidents. My mistake, so the JFK president point is retracted, while retaining the working title bit. (Ill leave the remark up for clarity though.) 22:18, August 12, 2011 (UTC) ''Both'' S3 plans? Is there any evidence that the Patriots really misled Ocelot? The Big Shell was a cover-up for Arsenal Gear, yes. But it also did do what the public was led to believe it did: clean up an oil spill (either very slowly, or they dumped more oil in secret) So while the Solid Snake Simulation may be a coverup for the other S3 plan...it was also still present. Another cover-up that actually does something, perhaps? [[User_talk:The.Dreadnought|T'he']]' DreadnoughT'' 20:42, September 3, 2009 (UTC) :The evidence we have is the fact that they say it themselves. You're right though, The Big Shell Incident pretty much did do the fake S3 plan, I guess that's why it was such a good cover up, and why Ocelot fell for it. But at the end of the day it wasn't really what the Patriots cared about during the incident. --Fantomas 10:34, September 4, 2009 (UTC) ::It's also likely that Ocelot did indeed know the true nature of the S3 plan, but lied about it standing for "Solid Snake Simulation," especially seeing how it's revealed that he was actually one of The Patriot's founders, and not merely a grunt. Most likely, he deliberately lied so that he'd mislead the Patriots even further before his plans of betrayal (I'm guessing that he was actually hoping that he was to stall them for much longer than how it turned out, seeing how he reacted when Liquid possessed him yet again.). Weedle McHairybug 01:04, February 4, 2010 (UTC) :::At that point in time, I believe the Patriots were run by the JD AI, so Ocelot likely wasn't informed of the real S3 plan. --Bluerock 18:39, February 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::Sorry for reviving this, but I might as well point this out. Even without the part about him being a Patriot founder, Naomi pretty much seemed to know about the Patriots goals being domination over everything and their extending their control over the civilian population, something that the Patriots themselves mentioned as well. The only other person who would have known is Raiden, and given the fact that Raiden didn't interact much with Naomi, not to mention that Revolver Ocelot/Liquid Ocelot had her trying to develop FOXALIVE since at least three weeks after the Shadow Moses Incident, and Raiden was working for Big Mama since the Big Shell Incident, it's unlikely Raiden would have told her, so that only leaves Revolver Ocelot/Liquid Ocelot. It's also highly unlikely the Patriots would have told Naomi this either, seeing how that would have resulted in their destruction (as evidenced by her rationale for her actions in creating FOXALIVE). Weedle McHairybug 15:21, October 22, 2011 (UTC) The S3 plan's purpose? "The '''S3 Plan (Selection for Societal Sanity, a.k.a. Solid Snake Simulation) was a program run by The Patriots in order to manipulate world events and craft the personalities of individuals." Is this really what the intention was? The experiment performed in MGS2 showed that Raiden could be persuaded to accept the truth of his situation and act out the part assigned to him, so the ability to manipulate world events would be a reasonable application of the method the S3 plan put into place. But if the idea was to shape peoples' personality into a particular mold, then did the test on Raiden really accomplish this? Raiden was a child soldier (and deliberately chosen as such), so to test him against an environment of warfare would hardly be much of a character exercise. The more difficult test, perhaps, was his simultaneous handling of a relationship with Rose, but from what we see of that, the S3 plan wasn't able to stop his naturally reticent and elusive character from interfering with his interactions with her in a pretty serious way, even with the nanomachines blocking the memories of his background from his conscious mind. I think the S3 plan needs to be thought of as a way not so much of altering Raiden's personality, but as a way of controlling people with the personality Raiden serves as an archetypal example for. For a quote to back this up: Colonel : Ha, ha, ha...exactly right. So you see, you're a perfect representative of the masses we need to protect. This is why we chose you. You accepted the fiction we've provided, obeyed our orders and did everything you were told to. The exercise is a resounding success. -- 09:40, August 17, 2010 (UTC) :I don't know if that is it, but considering how part of the S3 Plan also involved instigating "terrorist attacks" on the populace (Vamp implied before his and Raiden's match that it was the Patriots who truly did the terrorist attacks on both their own comrades and civilians alike, and Dead Cell had absolutely nothing to do with it, something Ocelot later mentioned about how the Patriots set up Dead Cell with the intention that they would go renegade), I doubt the plan was solely for Raiden to be molded, but more like for them to manipulate world events and craft the personalities of individuals. Weedle McHairybug 20:19, August 18, 2010 (UTC) ::"Personality" is really the wrong word, it was more like "crafting people's perceptions." --Bluerock 20:22, August 18, 2010 (UTC)